Episode #4 Transcript: Looking through the lens of music, on its relevance to culture, legacy, and the future… with Fatboy Slim

[(07:48)]Jax: Welcome to the show my good friend Norman Cook, aka “Fatboy Slim”. You do not know the first time we met, but it would have been in the airport in Milan. There was this techno gig that will play on the rooftop of a city building. I was behind you in the lobby of a hotel. I met you but you did not meet me. I said hello, and I was too shy to go any further than that, but little did I know, it blossomed into a really lovely relationship where I think we interviewed… had a long conversation at your house, and you have now asked me to play on your tour, which is the amazing arena shows you put on, amazing club immersive, like club experience that only you can pull off. I have learned a lot from you, from far and in-person and things you have told me.  I think there is a lot to learn and … of Martin, who is my co-host on the show. I want to introduce you to him. So Norman, meet Martin Warner. Martin Warner, Norman.

[(08:42)] Norman: Martin, how you doing?

[(08:43)] Martin: Hey, Norman. Good to meet you. I am a big fan, a huge fan.

[(08:46)] Norman: Bless you. I am sorry that I did not remember you the first time we met.

[(08:52)] Jax: There is nothing to remember–

[(08:53)] Norman: Was that, we would kick in Mussolini’s old headquarters or something?

[(08:57)] Jax: Yes, it was, man. 

[(08:58)] Norman: Then, it was an edifice of fascism. Then they messed something up, so, where I was supposed to be playing, they had noise problems, so I could not play there. Then they were going to put me in the techno dungeon. Then they decided that I just… I would get canned off stage if played in that band[?]. Then we put an impromptu one on the roof. 

[(09:20)]: Jax: That is exactly–

[(09:22)] Norman: That is probably my worst gig actually, of the last 15 years.

[(09:25)] Jax: If that was your worst gig. That was terrible for me.

[(09:27)] Norman: If you gave me a second chance after all that, then I thank you.

 [(09:32]) Jax: I mean, you are a humble guy.  You probably will not like me saying all this, but you are a pioneer of a genre that is rare in itself. You have had an incredibly long career with many different amazing moments. To this day, you can still command the main stage festival all around the world, and I mean that is incredible. For us, the purpose of this podcast is from the perspective of a fan but also… we love the idea of meeting people that have achieved a certain level, like yourself. We just feel that even if you are not in music, there are things that could inspire other people that within their own disciplines that they could… things that perhaps that are intrinsic to you and innate. Someone could learn from that and pick up. Perhaps apply to your own field, and you are just such a great guy. I think if someone took 5% of what you do, I think it would make what they do a bit better.

[(10:28)] Norman: Thanks for saying all that. I am a humble person, which is, it means it is great that somebody else will say it for you. I am humbled but I am very proud of a lot of the stuff I have done in my life. I think one of the reasons that asked to get on is I think you are very similar to me, in that you grew up just loving music, and not just, “I want to make music, or I want to be a DJ,” it is kind of you bought into the whole package, which is why you want to do radio shows and podcasts and stuff like that. You just want to be immersed in it. I see a lot of myself in you. I think that is why we have already gone because I feel like some kind of uncle who could hopefully, watch a chart of your progress. There are so many people that you meet in this industry who just are inspired by everything about it, and they are not. They just did not just wake up one day and say I want to be famous, it is like you are just inspired by the whole world of music, and you buy into the whole package. That in turn is inspiring to other people, because you see these people that going on, “He is like I was.” It used to be that DJs were always like that, because the only reason you be a DJ, is you were so into music, that you had to play it to other people and you had to share it with everyone. It was never in those days, it was never a shortcut to stardom, or anything else. The only people who are into it, we are just into it because they just loved it. That is probably the reason I have gotten away with it for so long, is because I continue to love it. I have never seen it as a job. It is just the best hobby in the world.

[(12:02)] Jax: There is so much to be said in that because I think some of the stuff that we are going to be covering is just like a bit about yourself a bit about your career, and a bit about music in general. I think like underpinning all that. One thing that I notice about your career is that it is just that deep passion for music, which I think is hard to maintain because it can erode as you become a professional. With the way the industry treats you and the way, especially now, the way music is consumed is very different, in my opinion, to even five years ago, do you I mean–

[(12:37)] Norman: Yes, the way it is consumed, and the way it is produced as well because in the old days to get in the studio to do anything, you had to talk someone into giving you the money or lending you the money, or you had to put on your bike, or something like that. Whereas, now, people could do it on laptops, the way we DJ is different before you had to learn the art of beat matching records. Now, you can just get a laptop to do it. But the underlying thing of it has not changed. It is like when people ask me about how technology has changed DJ-ing? Yes, you have got the sync button that will mix for you. Yes, you can … you have got access to more music, you do not have to spend all your afternoons, they are going round crazy record shots, trying to find that one tune. Everything’s at your fingertips. The basic reason that we do what we do is that young people want to go out and get high and get laid, and get excited. There is a basic primeval instinct, whether it is cavemen dancing around, or whatever. There is that primal thing of escapism, and hedonism, and sex and, that never really changes. The way the buttons we press to do it may change but the basic thing is the pure love of escapism, and idiocy, and lust, and all the things that could come out in it. 

I have never got jaded about that. I mean, bits of the industry side of it, I have got jaded over and over the years.  Again, like seeing you it is like you are just you are up for everything. When I first started I was in a band called the House Miser, my nickname is Sporty Norman. He is up for everything, he is just like a puppy.  When you start your outfit, you agree to everything and you want to do everything you want. As you get older, I do get a bit jaded about bits of the industry that I do not, it is just like, “I have done this long enough, I do not have to do that anymore.” If you do something for 10 years, and it always ends up the same way. It is how this is going to end up. The definition of madness is you keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result. So, over the years, there are bits of the industry side of it that I just thought well, I do not need to do that. I will do bits I love but, the photo sessions, and the videos, and all of it. Every year, I gauge… I am not doing that anymore. One more thing and– 

[(15:04)] Jax: You basically knocked one-off. 

[(15:06)] Norman:  Yes, well, I think probably my might be I do occasionally knock him off. Yes.  Probably the turning point for me was videos. Around the time, I would be in Free [inaudible] Beats International, and the House Misers, we have made videos, some have been successful, some had not. They were always the most expensive part of the process. I did not really enjoy the filming of them and everything. When I started getting on the radio with Fatboy Slim, the record company was like, “We got to make videos” and I was like [inaudible]. How bored the videos and I do not enjoy making them that whole idea of me, “Look at me, I am young and beautiful and pretty.”  That side of it, I just thought, I am sorry, is it right If I am not in my videos? The record companies are okay. When the videos did not have to feature me, we started experimenting with them, and very quickly, we found out you can make much more interesting videos without me in them. That turned around to my advantage. Two years later, someone pitched a video with me in it. The record company goes, “No, he is not in his videos.” So things like that, where you can shape it to your advantage you cannot do the bits that you find a chore or just that you are not comfortable with as I get older. The idea of me [crosstalk].

 [(16:27 )]Jax: But it was something about the way you should do before we jump into the meat and chips at this combo. There was as much as making some of the biggest records of all time in dance music and in like pop culture in general. Your videos are big reference points for me as well, like– 

[(16:43)]Martin: Me too.

[(16:43)] Jax:  I agree, by the way, wholeheartedly, and even more so now because YouTubers has just devalued the nature of the video, if MTV short and videos up like that year, YouTube just kind of plateaued it because now everyone is doing a video. It becomes even harder now to stand out. If anything, the lower your production value, but the better the idea the further you are going to go, and your videos did that on the nose. The Praise You video with I think I read about the crazy the breakdance so that you came across like in on the streets and when he is like, “Let us put him in a video. Right?”

[(17:17)] Norman: It was not quite that.

[(17:20 )] Jax: That was…Is that the spinner?

[(17:19 )] Norman: No.  I thought it was that, but then I found out that that crazy break-dancer is actually Spike Jones, who is the director of all my favorite videos, and when I found it was actually him doing the dancing. Yes, he left a VHS in my hotel room in LA saying “I saw this crazy crack head dancing to Rockefellers gang and thought you might want to see it”. It was basically a kind of prototype of the crazy video, but it was just him on his own just dancing outside a movie theater, and just doing the most stupid moves. I was like, “that is the kind of video I want to make.”  That was a real turning point in my career internationally launching me in America and stuff like that. But for me, it was the genius was that I sat down with the record companies and then got into what do not you like about videos. I am like, “All the best ones have been made, we are going to have to do something different. “I do not want to be in, because there is nothing for me to mime because I do not really do anything on the record. They are too expensive. My recording budget in my bedroom is like that. You make a video and that is like that. It satisfied everything because it was like a viral really, it was taking the piece. It had zero budget, so it did not cost anything. It got excited people without trying to impress them with how many bitches with big booties that I had in my video, or how well I could dance or act. It spawned a whole bit like virals are to polish videos. It is like an idea rather than just a glorified promotional tool.

[(19:03)] Jax: Who was the actor getting a weapon of choice?

[(19:06)] Norman: In weapon of choice it is Christopher Walker.

[(19:09)] Jax: I mean, how did you get him to do that?  That is the dream. Do  [inaudible] from Game of Thrones?  

[(09:15)] Norman: Yes.

[(09:16)] Jax: I feel like that is my modern-day weapon of choice actress or actor to do the dance. If I could get her… what she likes? six foot-five? To dance around a beautiful lobby, that will be the 2021 version or whatever. That is what I am saying, how did you get him to do it? Do you get schedules and all that?

[(19:35)] Norman: Again, that was Spike Jones, who I did the Praise You video with. I was mates with him and he met Christopher Walker.  Chris Walker was dropping hints saying, “I really want to get my da… because I trained as a dancer – I really want to get my dancing down on tape while I am still young enough to do it.” He just went hold on. He walked outside and rang me like “Norman, I have got Christopher Walker. He wants to do like tap dancing in a video.  Are you up for it?” Yes, fine. 

That came off the back of what we have done with the other videos, it is like, actors that wanted to be in a video because in one of my videos, because it was done in a way, the best thing I can say to you, Jax, is that you have carved enough of a name for yourself, you could probably find these people out. You could probably because you never know she might just be your biggest fan. I know you are a big hit with the ladies. It could be, she might just be, you might make that call guy like call and go, “What is she going to say?” She is just sitting there going, “Oh, my God, Jax. I got to mean him,” Now you cut the rungs up the ladder. Do not underestimate the power your name might have. She might just be your biggest fan, try it.

[(21:01)]Jax: And there is the second insight of the day is just give up, pick up the phone and give it a try. 

[(21:07)] Martin: Got to get going. 

[(21:09 )] Jax: A couple of rungs up the ladder. Yes, it is true.

[(21:11)] Norman: I mean…Okay, one thing that especially in this day and age is you can never underestimate people who might have heard of you. In the old days, you just think, “Well, if they live in America, they never know what I did,” something like that. But everyone… everybody, they are probably more famous people are your fans than you realize, and it is not a given, but you could find out people and they go ” Christ, who knew?”, who knew that he would want me?  I mean, once you get to know.

[(21:44)] Jax: Yes, true. I mean– 

[(21:45)] Norman:  It is generally a polite no, it is generally a lie. “He is a little bit busy at this moment,” rather than, “Who the fuck do you think you are?”

[(21:55)] Jax: It is not that wild.

[(21:56)] Norman: No, try it, because he does happen. It is quite a funny thing when famous people or people that you would not associate with that. Get in remember, Russell Keats had James Corden in one of their really early videos. [crosstalk].

[(22:11 )] Jax: Yes, I remember that.

[(22:11)] Norman: For no particular reason, I am like, how did that happen? They were not of us might have a mate this month and he likes the trumpet song. He was like, “Yes, I will do it.” You never know. It is my only promise if you do this, and whether it is her or somebody else. If you do this, just promise me that you do something really weird and astounding, Do not just tell you, you have to do something that puts them out of their context.

[(22:40)] Jax: That is the beauty of it. Yes, I have got to say people do not pay attention to dancing as they do back in the day. It actually takes more effort than you think, a real stickler for dance routines. If I am being honest, probably too much, probably in the wrong job, should be a dance captain or something like that. I have known to go on set and start just stopping the video and getting them to redo the dance 100 times until I think it fits the song perfectly.

[(23:05 )] Norman:  I would really love it in a year from now. I am just cruising through the internet and I happen on your video this like, Demi Moore doing a clock dance wearing nothing but bananas. I know that is wrong and funny indifferent. Then I remember he promised he do that.

[(23:28)] Martin: Was it Tom Cruise at the end of Tropic Thunder in it?

[(23:30)] Norman: Yes.

 [(23:31)] Martin:  God. Yes. It is the greatest cameo ever, right?

[(23:35)]Jax: In life.

[(23:36)] Martin: Before we kick off the with… Where did you get Demi Moore from? I am a big fan of Demi Moore. Why did she pop into your head?

[(23:43)] Norman: I have absolutely no idea because I was going to say, Halle Berry. I have really got the hots for Halle Berry. I did not want to give it away. also I [crosstalk]

[(23:56)] Jax: Halle Berry dates quite wonderfully. Actually, her last boyfriend was an Englishman. So, you are not actually out of like a fight in terms [crosstalk].

[(24:04 )] Norman:  I do follow up just to make sure she is not single at the moment but if she does, I will be knocking on the door saying, “I have got a new single out, Halle.”

[(24:13)] Martin: Are you my fan? I think it. I think that is great advice you gave, Jax, actually because the world wants ownership in multiple industries but I am not in the consumer world intentionally. I am always stunned at people that follow entrepreneurs that have no reason to but discover something. When you are in the consumer gym, and you have got all of these people just listen to music. It makes sense that as you go up the pyramid, the whole bunch of people appreciates your work. It totally makes sense. The other tip is if you do not ask, you do not get, you got to get out there, right? Who better than yourself Jax?

[(24:49)] Jax:  what I mean, if there is one thing I have learned about celebrity dumb, essentially when they have got a product, they are people with high-level performance. They are in fact what you just said, they are just consumers of culture, they love culture as well. They will have no issue even when they are sick. If you go to Instagram, you see Calvin Harris… we are techno DJs that have 5000 followers and whatnot. You think, “Wow, that is on Calvin Harris’s radar.” It is because Calvin Harris gives a shit about music. Do  I mean? I do not think you can excel at anything without knowing it deeply at every stage. Do you mean [crosstalk].

[(25:29)] Norman: I like what you said, it is like no matter how successful famous you are, you are still a consumer of other people’s policy, you still got a favorite and you have still got a go-to…[pause]

[(25:45)] Martin: I thought you were going to continue.

[(25:47)] Norman: I did it too but I could not think of the next word. Now that they have…now that was, there was a glitch in my Wi-Fi, I did not really catch there.

[(26:03)] Martin: Norman, can we do this. What would I love to do is talk a little bit about you then also talk a bit about your career little bit about the kind of music landscape we know. You guys kind of quite knowingly because dived into something that was really natural. I would love to just break it up because one of the questions I would love to start with is, I am 49. I remember when you hit the scene, and I was a huge fan, then and when I heard that we were going to get you on the show. It just brought back not just the song, but it brought back the memories of that period of my life. I have just been planning them ever since. Then, ironically, my son is an aspiring aged 19 is listening to your music as well. And I said that this is this would be super cool. I thought, well, I think I know who “Fatboy Slim” is. I have followed your career. I have looked at the guys who have given me what you are doing lately, and I have looked and I thought, well, but I know who you are as an artist. I always think it is an interesting question to ask the person how they would describe themselves. I wonder if you would spend like a minute or two. How would you if you were just telling the listeners, how would you describe yourself in whatever way you feel natural?

[(27:09)] Norman: I do not know. I have always said I am a shy show-off, which is the same oxymoron as being a fat boy, you slim? Yes, I am a show-off but I show off to someone who attempts not to have an ego about it and is quite apologetic about it, but just cannot help himself. So, every time I try and be cool, yes, it is a bit like making records. A lot of the times I am like, right, okay, today, you are going to make a really cool record, it is going to be really minimal and cool. There is just some hook that comes and ends up as a pop record. It is in my nature to show off and go for something that gets a reaction. That is probably the best babies. But, on the other, again, it is a bit of an oxymoron, because there are two Emmys definitely. As I get older, there are definitely two Emmys. One is normal, and the other is Fatboy, he does things that normally would never do, and vice versa. It is but it is quite nice. That is quite nice because I do not have to continue to live up to the reputation of being Fatboy Slim. I can switch off, I can switch overnight, I can be a responsible father of two and grow old gracefully as Norman but I still get my kicks of getting out there and pretending I am 17 again.

[(28:34)] Martin: Were you always like a performer?

[(28:36)] Yes, absolutely, a show from school days, show off from birth, I think all my whole family were show offs, so it was like I was the youngest of three kids. The youngest show, I had to out show off the older two because though, they would be doing it longer than me. We had to take our parents on who would be showing off their whole lives. So yes, we have definitely quite an extrovert family.

[(29:02)] Martin: Were your parent’s musical?

[(29:05)] Norman: No, I mean, we used to sing in the car on long car journeys. When we were singing, we were taking harmonies and we had certain songs that we could really do quite well without singing along to the radio, we could actually sing as a family. I think that is my earliest feeling about music that I love to listen to music, but then making it, it is just something really powerful happens when there are five of us in a car, and we stopped routing for five minutes and we are all singing a song. We are all singing harmonies, it was just like, watch the strange way that my heart beats when I do this. That is for me, that is still an ongoing power of music. Like these days, I do not play so much with bands, but obviously have done quite a lot in my career every now and then it is a friend’s wedding or something.

[(30:01 )] Martin: Have you ever got the band back together?

[(30:03 )] Norman: Yes, every now and then we put a little pickup band together. The thrill that I get when I get in a little, in some in a rehearsal studio or somebody’s front room and we start playing together again, some really powerful house. It is the same as when you are DJing to a crowd, and the whole crowd is with you. You are all in that same, you all want the same thing. It is a very powerful thing that happens. Yes, I suppose that is part of that love, that love is the excitement I get about enjoying, sharing music with people role and just consuming it as a fan, being part of it. 

[(30:45 )] Jax: Where do you think that love for sharing came from?

[(30:44 )] Norman: I do not know. Like I said, from that just the way that my heartbeat when I was singing together with my family, or, it is just like, it is a bit like it is probably the same thing I had when I had my first erection is like, what is this? Why is there blood rushing around my body at all going there, it is just what is this is really exciting, so, it was it is a bit like that. I have had moments like, with the first band, I was in The Housemates, we used to sing acapella. Now, that is such a feeling when you are – you also have got a song that you like, and then you are working on the arrangement, and you do and then the one time, all of a sudden, you have nailed it, and you have hit your “everyone’s got their own little harmony,” and you just look at each other and, and it is like the power of the four voices becomes like an orchestra. It is the same thing, a big gig, the power of all those people mesh together and all in the same mindset and wanting to do the same thing becomes bigger than the sum of the parts…

[(31:40)] Jax: With life in it. It is like that is life. I think that even when you make music that when you include a voice on it, it just adds life to it in a different kind of way. I mean, I think that is I know what you mean about especially about acapella and harmony not because I am wondering because when I have been helping my son, Sam with music and like showing him how production chops and then you but he already had like really… because I believe anyone can learn how to make music but what you cannot learn is taste. I think the taste is what comes from those experiences and your teens. What your kind of exposed to because that kind of sets your markers like your parameters for like, your level of complexity or how far you are willing to go for something. Do you mean and so that is what I was asking and I do not think you ever shake that? Do you mean because like if I am being honest with you even though now I have done loads of different genres I was in bands before I have made grime I have made hip hop and now I have ended up in house music and I learned the genre piece by piece and it was quite what I found for me most excited about it was the history? Because I love that John Rhoda has a history in culture but ultimately I kept my preferences. For example, why I love the spoken word vocal or I love a more like R&B tinge top line is because I grew up on R&B. I am like, dancehall and black music primarily unlike highlife. Do you I mean, and at the time I care is one and I do not think you ever shaped that, which is why I was asking. The same with Sam with Martin’s kid is he talks about the monkeys and Cat Stevens or things that his dad played that Martin played to him. So like, I wonder when you were growing up whether there were any key things there? That is what I was kind of asking.

[(33:35)] Norman: Yes, no, actually, when you were saying that. So, like and knowing your music yes, you can hear those little bits of everything you have grown up with, which is the most honest way of making music you just think what did I like when I was growing up with like, and then you unconsciously or consciously take the best bits out of it. So, I was really lucky. I grew up in a really good era, I think, for music. I grew up on the Beatles, literally they started the year I was born. So the first 10 years of my life were just the Beatles. Then just when I was finding my feet when I was 14 punk came along. That gave me the attitude of you can that you do not have to be a virtuoso musician. It just makes your own rules homemade music, homemade record labels, and that freedom that punk it was not just about making really loud snarky music and spitting at each other. , there was a… [crosstalk].

[(34:32)] Jax: Punk is crazy, I just discovered a minor threat. 

[(34:36)] Norman: Right?

[(34:36)] Jax:  What I am talking about, like I just I have never known much about punk and I was listening to a minor threat. That song about being clean is do  I am talking about?

[(34:46)] Martin: I know exactly what you are talking about? Why are you listening to that?

[(34:49)] Jax: Straight edge, I was listening to straight edge. I just was obsessed with the lyric even though I could not understand what he was saying to Google it but it was, it is like growing up in that time must have been a buzz.

[(35:02)] Norman: When I say it was because it was like the time when you would want to be starting bands and doing stuff. It was like well, anyone can do anything… put geeks on in your local village hall, start a band when you cannot actually play the instrument that you are going to be playing in thing but you have got a week to learn it, so there was that freedom. As I just came of age got to nightclubs Planet Rock happened. The nightclubs are going through a plane that early electro stuff and rap music. House came along and had the energy. So, when I started after my other forays into pop music when I started the Fatboy Slim persona that was basically was the hook lines from the Beatles mixed with the Do It Yourself attitude of punk, mixed with the breakbeats from Hip Hop, and the energy of Acid House. They were the four phases of my life all rolled into one and that was kind of that is the blueprint. 

[(35:58)] Martin: I could literally see that…

[(36:01)] Norman: I was not conscious. It was not until I have been asked about it in so many interviews. One day I would say “Yes, that is really that is what it is.”

[(36:09)] Jax:  I think that even extends in the way you market yourself as well though because you like you go off and do an arena but then, I saw the other day you were doing Bellamy which is for people that do not know is an internet radio station with an app that does not work at the moment. I was quite pissed off about that but it is an internet radio station based out of the pecker market. I just got such a buzz watching you play that. I just think that is just so that is the punk to me, that kind of observation of underground culture.

[(36:39)] Norman: I played an air of dub. It was quite a journey through dub, which again came back to that is what John Peel used to play when I was a kid. I mean, it stayed in dance music culture that kind of the use of space and remixing into every shingle was based on dub mixes really. So, yes, like I said, “I am still a fan I still enjoy. I am not just in it to fill arenas.” I know it sounds really clever and virtue signaling. But now, my relationship with music goes way, way beyond just it being a vehicle to filling arenas.

[(37:25)] Martin: I have got a question for you. I feel like this comes later. But we are kind of dancing around us, it is so difficult to get off kind of this stuff. So, I guess I will throw it out there. Now, it is with such a large body of experience. You are… got these four phases, and you are… put it into everything. I think as I get older, I am struggling… I want to create new things, and new products and services but I am living vicariously through my life and my kid and one of the kids will tell me something. I think what, that is something I now want to do. You have got such a body of work. Are you looking for just different experiences and you have kind of got the body that you can work with? Are you looking for something else in your life now? Whether it be music or whatever like, “Are you bothered about kind of exploring the unknown again?” Or is it just so much that you have got that you can just continue to do unique things within it? Do what I mean?

[(38:19)] Norman: Yes, I mean, that is touched on a few things. I mean, I am driven these days, unless I am driven more by fear than ambition. And… I, whereas, , when I was Jack’s age, I just wanted to do everything. So, I would try and get my hand at anything, and some of it works on it would not but I could take the rejection if it did not. As I get older, I kind of less or take your rejection less well, because I think my age…

[(38:49)] Jax: I’m the opposite way round, like when you give a shit less as you get older.

[(38:53)] Norman: I do not know what interesting way of looking at philosophy in life. Now, I am definitely the other way around. Like when I was a kid, I would do, jump on every roller coaster. I think that might be a bit dangerous or just, my golly, my back. No,  I know I think I am bored…. when you are at this end of my career and I mean, obviously, you are a lot younger, you always worried about the end like that moment when they go come in, come in number 47 your time is up. You want to think, well, thanks. It is been nice. I have had a great time, then bowed gracefully. What you do not want is to spend the last 10 years of your career life flogging a dead horse. Nobody wants to. And so you become very, in tune with the vibrations am I doing things right? I think what it then leads to is you do not take so many risks because if you make it make a shit record, before you go with that, right, okay, no one likes that record. You were wrong. I was right. One day, you might get it, but I will move on to the next thing. Whereas my as you made a shit record, you just wander around the house and you are gesturing going and I made a shoe record. No one likes me. God wants me to do? So I am no I take fewer risks. Nothing you touched on about is like your relationship with your kids because you… I have got a 20-year-old son, and an 11-year-old daughter and both of them are really into pop music and into different coming in from is completely [crosstalk].

[(40:27)] Jax: Your daughter DJs though?

[(40:27)] Norman: She did. Well, yes, they were obviously it is a two-way street because obviously, they have grown up in this house, which is a museum to music. I am always doing my stuff in the office, they hear the music coming through but when I listen to some of the stuff my 11-year-old daughter listens to I really feel like my parent’s reaction to when I bought punk rock records home, they are like, I do not understand this at all. So, I get worried about some of the things that my kids might say about what I do, or whether it is relevant, do you worry about that, but at the same time, I pick up on some trends and things and some people occasionally impressed that a man of my age will know about certain I knew about Tiktok five years ago. Trust me, you will know about it here. So, yes, I would say kids, on the one hand, it can scare you because they make you feel old and make you feel redundant. But at the same time, they are your conduit to what might be going on the street, that you do not stroll anymore. So, I think yes, as probably as an entrepreneur, you obviously have to take things a bit more seriously and really think about the market but try not to be scared of your kids use them to your advantage. Tap them for their knowledge.

[(41:51)] Martin: I am trying. I am tapping away. Now, I largely agree with pretty much everything you said. I think that there is a cause and effect to everything and I think as you get older, I think that there are two ways of looking at it, you can go about change and keep forcing the extraordinary in the hope that you will not fail. It does not matter that you are actually improving your mind and being agile and all of that or you can say to yourself, shit, it could be my last stand. As an entrepreneur, every time I remember we calculate that they feel like they are starting again, every time they put an album out, well, every time I create a product, I feel like that. I think it is interesting that when you have got a lot of experience, you can actually create noble things, from a large body of work. After all, there is no more music today, everything’s known, right? So ultimately, the fast forward might be an application in the way that you deliver it. It does not mean you have to go and create something that is really dramatically different. Yet, for me, there is a personal calling, I want to be able to find new experiences, I noticed on your site, you are out there curate and you are doing other things as well, other than hopefully getting back to performing and all the rest of it. I wonder if they are part of just this kind of growth process in you. [crosstalk]

[(43:12)] Norman: Well, I said about 10 years ago, when the kind of…the hits had dried up, and the records have dried up. And our manager was like, “what is going on here, what, where are we?” After I felt like I would be on a bit of a treadmill, where everything you have to do is either commercially or artistically more successful than the thing he did before. If you have been doing that for 20 years, his focus, crisis exhausting, and I have watched mountaintop do I have to go to next? I said to him, “Is it right?” If I just take my foot off the gas a bit, and we do things that are going sideways rather than up? I do not want to do things bigger. I do not want to… I have got enough money that I do not I am not searching the dollar. Can we just do stuff that is interesting to me, rather than just trying to do something that is bigger and better than what I have done before? I think it is quite a hard thing to do. Even when you have been doing it for 20 years, and you feel like you have been to the mountaintop, it is still hard to go. Okay, I am just going to take a step back a bit. But– 

[(44:15] Jax: There is a certain acceptance to that. I think, like even thinking about that. Now, I have tried to do like, even just like placebo wise, tried to put that into my mindset, because I think perhaps I will be more creative if I do that. Do you I mean, but I always come back to this like, diehard, I just want to be bigger and better than I was, and make a bigger record and do I mean and how did you… was that hard to like, take that step?

[(44:41)] Norman: Yes.  I do not know. I got pretty big… I cannot say I have got to the point where some of the gigs we have done on Brighton Beach is like there is absolutely no physical way you are ever going to talk.  That old thing, once you have been to number one, there is no higher place to go, and so in a way, it was easy because I was getting a little bit exhausted with it all. I was getting exhausted physically and emotionally and creatively after having done it for 25 years. But also it was easier to get off because it gave me something else to do the sideways means lots of fun. It means you can indulge in your passion for art and curate an art show and just try things out you are never done but the first thing I did was, instead of trying to make a hit record, I tried to write a musical with David Byrne, about the life of him about the life of Imelda Marcos. It was not my biggest commercial hit, but I really enjoyed doing it and it ran on Broadway Off and it ran at the National Theatre. It was great fun to do and not just because it was lovely to work with David Byrne, but just to do something completely different. It takes the pressure off you to overachieve and to have bigger and bigger hits because you are not trying to do something that is not here. I think the last couple of years, I did a soundtrack of a film which works on the soundtrack of a film which I have always wanted to do.

[(46:16)] Jax: What film was Norman?

[(46:17 )] Norman: That was a beta the silent movie, which was–

[(46:21)] Jax: Is the soundtrack different from what you are typically known for that how did you approach it?

[(46:25)] Norman: I was just the…I was just trying to soundtrack assign a movie. The idea was that it was telling the story of beta but not just a load of Fox parts of Pete’s song and pulled out of our garage. It was shot not just banging on with the same old stories. The director decided that let us make it a silent movie. There is no talking at all. He just explained everything by reenactments and graphics. That was a really good discipline but then obviously, the soundtrack becomes really important if there is no speaking. You are trying to tell the story with music. I did not… I was not like writing a score. I was curating it like a DJ word… sourcing tunes that I thought made the scenes come to life. It was fabulous, really great fun to do. It was a subject that I knew really well, there was a lot of love in it for me. So yes, doing things like that, really… They keep my love and interest going, rather than just feeling that I am on a treadmill.

[(47:47 )]Jax: It is so cool.

[(47:47)] Martin: I got a question just on that. What silent movie did you say you created like a DJ? Did you focus on the story, not what so I am mostly in the film business as well? And I think about the story arc as being the most critical moment. But you can look at the events that are just transpiring on the screen. So what you are looking at, like the moments and thinking a little bit like Tarantino writes lyrics, or what he is hearing in, in music, or what you focused on, what is the overall story, like what is going on here.

[(48:14)] Norman: I was focused on the way that music can help tell a story. If you think that, like you were saying about you, when you were thinking about my use it related to events in your life, and it was the soundtrack for a moment in your life, which hopefully was an exciting one, or night out or a person that you met one night, and I love the way that music is to becomes a soundtrack of your life. So then, having done that tried to make the soundtrack of people’s lives to then do a film soundtrack where you are trying to do it in reverse, and use the music to tell the story rather than the other way around. It was more like, how do I make the story come to life more by the music being sympathetic to it. Even down to the point of just like sound effects things. There are kinds of effects you are using in club tracks, and maybe when you are DJing but to actually sit there with the thing on the screen. When somebody goes like that, if I could follow a snare drum, they are just nice. There were no rules musically about what I could do. I would be looking at, it is like, there is not there is a water noise in the background. Like, let us bring that in and actually using Foley sound. Because that is something I have never done before. It is great fun because you do it and you put obvious sound effect that you go for sound effect library and you put it onto something real and it is like, you make it hit the moment that hits then you go away make stuff cup of tea, you switch it back on, and then you believe that that is actually the noise of the splash. Yes, so it was more because it was a documentary and not a love story, or… it was just taking each scene and just trying to make it come to life with music. Now I really enjoyed doing that.

[(50:10)] Jax: I have got to ask them because I consider you an amazing selector. As you say, you have got a deep knowledge of music, and this I think any advice you give will help any musician, DJ, music lover, or someone who just wants to rule the house party? How do you go about looking for records? How that has changed as well? Because back in the day, as you say you would have gone to record stores, ain’t it, yes, and it is changed now but you one thing I noticed about you whenever you play, you always have the latest shit and you always play it in a really unique way. Do you know what I mean?

[(50:44)] Norman: It is just that side of it is just doing background just putting the hours in research…

[(50:54)] Jax: …Putting in the hours. 

[(50:55)] Norman: Yes, just research. I mean, I do not know about you, I get sent probably about 30-40 emails of music every day from record companies. I give every single one of them at least 10 seconds. I do not pay somebody else to go through it for me, I go through it. I probably spend on average two, three hours a day, just going through all the new tunes. But beyond that, I do not know I mean, it is it is half of it is just being a fan. The other half is just keeping a professional ear to the ground. If I hear something that I like, I just choose me and then I email it to myself that when I get home as I listen to what my kids are into, I do not know I mean it is just been a selector or a career curator or anything as you just spend your whole life looking around going “Oh, I like that. That is good.” Now put that somewhere in a notebook or some storage somewhere in your head for future use. And that is why I did the soundcheck thing was great because there are tons of tunes that are really evocative but do not make people dance. So I have never really had a chance to get them out and wave them around in public before. So, I do not know,  Jax was that half of the reason we get away with what we do is that we have got air, we have got air for a hook… and air, whether it is you are set on making your own records or somebody else’s, you got to “Oh, that is catchy.” Two weeks later, it turns you hear on the radio, yes, oh, everyone else thinks he is catchy too. That bit that there is something you have I think you have either got or you have not.

[(52:33)] Jax: I think the catchy test is a tricky one because it does mean you always lean towards the hook. I always get confused when I find slightly more like ambiguous tracks, especially an underground culture that is void of hooks by is going off in a club, there is definitely a difference in club culture. Between that, it is something that catchy, and then something that induces a feeling.  what I mean.

[(52:57 )] Norman: [inaudible] there is what he got exactly what you were talking about, in my shows, I get these tunes where it is like, are really low. That is really does us a really good beat, but it has got no hooks, I just nicked the hook off the latest pop record, wash that in the middle of it. That I learned [crosstalk].

[(53:16 )] Jax: Normally literally the best that[?]

[(53:17)] Norman: I learned that from Grandmaster Flash because he was the one who got me into the idea of creative DJing. Obviously, he invented so many of the techniques of scratching and cut up music. I read every single interview that he ever did. He used to say that, he said, you place like the hot new track, something that is hot in your head. He said, “You see if your crowd goes with it, and then you reward him with something they know.” Then that lifts him up. You take them down a different avenue. He said “He is like a dog, he always rewards him with something they know.” That stuck in my head. I think whether consciously or unconsciously I do a lot of that. So, the so I try and get the coolest beats, but then what the hook of whatever everyone’s hearing on Radio One, or at least six [crosstalk]

[(54:05 )] Jax: If anyone wants to see that in action, the most recent I feel like the most recent example of that is on YouTube, you can watch your headline in Isle of Wight Festival. I think too, is it two years ago last year? 

[(54:15)] Norman: Well, it would have been two years ago in real terms.

[(54:19)] Jax: In real-time. Because it was like an Isle of Wight Festival, just to give you some context is a demo a wide demographic. It is not like a techno festival. It is a band festival. You headline there. And you can see that technique in action, just like there is a bit of education but then there is a bit of what, but then the balls to do it in front of 30,000 people there or something like that, that day is crazy.

[(54:49 )] Martin: I want to just come back to what you said because I think it is instructive for the audience. Last night, you actually talked about this question around how does this lets music because he likes great music, right? But actually, you said that you can kind of put the hard work in I think of that as immersion that you have to fully immerse yourself in anything or do not expect anything out of it. The other thing is, you got to love what you do. Norman has both right? He says he started out by saying, put the word kid right. He loves music but then, there is this thing called taste. Whether it is me as a designer, you guys as a music artist, you are recording, you have got to have a taste. And I think that how do people develop that it is innate in you if it is just something that you either have it or you do not?

[(55:31)] Jax: I do not think you can. I do not know.

[(55:34 )] Norman: It is contentious. I agree with you. It is contentious, but I think you have either got that bit of it or you have not.

[(55:39 )] Martin: Yes, that is a fair point. 

[(55:42 )] Jax: I feel like taste is you can improve your tastes, but you have to have it.

[(55:47 )] Martin:  You have got to have it somewhere. 

[(55:48 )] Jax: Yes, like if you for example, if you love bangers and mash and chicken nuggets, and then you expose you to like when you go to  restaurants like 13 different processes and there is this distillation of so and what I love about music, and when you start to travel you experience the culture, that is probably one of my favorite bits about the tour in is obviously the two hours of show. But if we are going to find love in the travel is we use you start to see humans are the same and you start to pick up these things right, but you experience life and food. When you taste bang in food. It is a true journey. Yes, he could taste it. And that is what I mean is like, if you love burgers, a mash and chicken, I have been on tour with some people, they go to those places, you have got chips, there is just there is no helping them. Do you I mean, and that is what I feel about taste is like, you even got in the beginning or you do not have to it is like, you cannot help you maybe you are done here. 

[(56:44)] Norman: Also, it is a bit like singing, there is someone I know and it really wants to be a singer and but cannot sing. And it is like really loves music but just cannot  I have got no pitch. [crosstalk]

[(57:02)] Jax: That is the end. That is not the end if you have got tone.

[(57:04)] Martin: Well, what thought changed me? 

[(57:06 )] Jax: Well, we all know, like, you can fake performance now, but you cannot fake tone.

[(57:11)] Norman: Yes, thing was, I am going to get singing lessons. I really wanted to say singing lessons are not going to you either got pitch or not, you either know when things are in tune in, or you do not. I do not know how… like you said, you can nurture it, and you can work on it, if you have got it, you have got to have in the first place but if you had like a pie chart of being successful DJ, or just a successful musician, I wonder how much of it is just that innate air that you have got for a hook, how much of it is just hard work and immersion and how much of it [crosstalk]

[(57:50]) Jax: Is exposure as well though, I remember reading a Rick Rubin quote it is like that you are what you eat, right? I remember Rick Rubin said, “If you want to become a great producer, guy, listen to the what Rolling Stone is considered the top 100 albums of all time.” That is a good place to start. If you digest all those things, you will probably be a better producer than you were last year. I mean, and there is something to be said in that because this, I guess, if you expose yourself to good shit, you will start to observe good shit basically [crosstalk]

[(58:22) Martin: What, the thing about skills right? I mean, in just about everything, and music is no different. You still need skills. So, I would argue and you have we have talked about this before, Tim? I bet it is the same phenomenon. You guys actually have things in common right now. Yes, having known a bit about North Korea, I know a lot about you. You both played in bands. You are both guitarists, you are both musical. Right? You both happened to lean on the side of be an extrovert, you are both open. So, when I look at this, I think to myself, well, that is how you deepen your knowledge.

[(58:52)] Norman: Were both sexy too.

[(58:56)] Martin: Listen, I agree. I want to think I want to be here.

[(59:01)] Jax: I can relate to this, by the way, I am a shy show off, show off. That is the new business card right now. Definitely a shy show-off.

[(59:10)] Martin: What was center is that you both have musical skills. It is like, that is one way that you can deepen your, your resourcefulness, right as a recording artist, or as in your performances. You can have taste, but you still need, you still need to have musical ability.

[(59:29)] Norman: Or, and this probably means more to us and entrepreneur, or you think round it. There is tons of people that I know, in the music business, who, , I would love to be a singer, but I am not a singer. So I have to be a producer or a DJ. Then there are people I know, who are not singers, but they are also not producers or DJs. They can be in management. Or they can, I mean a lot of DJs kind of want to be musicians, but they are not really musicians, but they can still enjoy their love of music, and they can still be creative and share their music through DJing even if they cannot actually write music. I think it just, does not mean that if there is something you love, if you are not able to do it, like directly does not mean you cannot be involved in that same arena or, still expand that love into a business. I mean, like my manager who I will not name but everyone in the business when I can honestly say that he is the worst singer who is got no sense of rhythm. We do inverse A&R. Like if he likes to tune I have done I dump it because and he will not mind me saying this, but, he has got such ahead for where the bigger picture of where things are going and right turns people on and he is constantly got his ear to the ground and always trying to find out things about everyone because of that he is had a fabulous career in music management and in the music scene but without any musical talent whatsoever. He has had the best life ever so yes because if you are not an innate singer or musician does not mean you cannot have a career in a creative career.

[(61:22)] Martin: Yes.

[(61:26)] Norman: You still got stuff to bring to the table.

[(61:28)] Martin: Sure. If I can change the subject slightly because I am fascinated to obviously we have to keep coming into music but I would love to discuss your and I am a big fan of Brian but your affinity with Brian obviously it is a big love for you Brighton Beach.  you have got your cafe you live there. Why is it so special to you? I mean, I give you my view, but I am much more interested in what it means to you. 

[(61:49)] Jax: By the way, I worried about the café. To get Norman to do this chat was difficult but also surprisingly easy because he is spending his days during the pandemic working at his own café.

[(62:01)] Norman: I just had to readjust the house. You were a victim of the weather, I am afraid because we knew that this week was going to be busy because the workers the first good weather, so I just had to be there at lunchtime just to cover the lunch hour. Yes, now my love affair with Brighton is I do not know, I just I think it is one of your really good dev affairs where you think your partner is really cool. They think you are really cool. So you think really cool and it just reciprocates and as long as he does not shag around, then it can carry on. So, it was like that. I mean, okay, I would move down to Brighton to go to college. But I did not care what course I was doing. I just wanted to be in Brighton because I would go there. And my sister used to live there. And I used to go stay in it. I knew it was really cool. I have just wanted to live in Brighton. And then when I started doing well in Brighton, everyone in Brighton was really proud of me for doing well. The fact that I did not leave Brighton what I had to move out to hold for a bit and eventually. But I always come back to Brighton and I was… and so everyone in Brighton is really proud of me. I know your local boy made good. And that feels that made me think a bright in the color I thought was really cool before now he is really cool. And they thought Oh, cool. Yes, so it is just, it is got to a stupid degree. Now, , after we did the big beach thing and everything. It is like, every single person in Brighton soon knows who I am in some way affected their life for good or ill. It is just I am really proud of the city I live in. It is quite a progressive thinking liberal kind of place. Anyway, very tolerant of alternative lifestyles and beliefs. I love the tolerance of the place. They have tolerated me and yes, there is a kind of I know it is just it. It does get a bit silly at times when people go, “Oh, you should be married.” Or people go, and you still live here. It is like it is not it is not a career decision…[crosstalk]

[(63:59)] Jax: Can you walk down the street in Brighton?

[(64:01)] Norman: Yes, of course, I can.

[(64:03)] Jax: Like without being like, tackled?

[(64:05)]Norman: Well, no, because the other thing is I think Brighton is small enough. Everyone in Brighton who likes me has met me by now. So everyone just [inaudible]

[(64:14)] Martin:[inaudible] the furniture.

[(64:17)] Norman: Yes, no, it is a very beautiful thing, my relationship with the place  I am living because I do… I just I am really proud. I am really proud of everything that it has… we have got the only green Council and MPs in the country. A lot of good stuff happens here and a lot of good music and people come out of here. So now I am very proud of the place

[(64:40)] Jax: Do you think it is important to have somewhere to rep? Somewhere that you are known to be from? Like, I think that builds like a story for someone. Do I mean like he is from Brighton?

[(64:53)] Norman: It is a pride. I mean, I have not got a huge amount of pride in being British. I will be honest with you. 

[(65:00)] Jax: Is that race thing or–

[(65:02)] Norman: It started probably in the minor strike and say, I grew up during the Thatcher years is not much to be proud of this country about and…  I am would never… I just got a new Mini and I made them take the union jack off the brake lights. And they said they were going to do and then they did not. I am like… I am not driving around with union jack every time I break… They are like, why not? I am like because I am not proud. I am not proud of England, or Great Britain, and traveling [crosstalk]

[(65:36)] Martin: [inaudible] one thing.

[(65:40)] Norman: Well…

[(65:40)] Martin: I mean, it really gets you but I mean, Thatcherism was an example in itself. That is a good one. But, is there any specific that you are like, “Fuck, we could have done that better.”

[(65:49)] Norman: Well, there are so many things we could do. But just I think the dumb arrogant patriotism. Patch. Yes.[crosstalk]

[(65:57)]Jax: Yes , that was also I was going to say that kind of imperialist that just that undercurrent

[(66:03)] Norman: To us thinking we are better than everyone else when we might have been but it was not even much to cry about in the first place apart from we enslaved a lot of people and raped their countries. It was, yes, no, it is just that idea that we are better than everybody else. I essentially have to travel around the world and I have to people just sneer at us and laugh or laugh about us. Especially since post Brexit is where it is barely even worse because they just think we are pompous, arrogant Tatsu, who live on an imperialist past that does not I will stop. I could go on often. I try and steer clear politics because I get quite cross about it. But I am coming back to Brighton, I am really proud of is like nothing that is Brighton has done that does not make me smile or laugh beam with pride. , there is a thing that was in the sun years ago about us not wanting the Tory party conference in the sun. It was like a sun. The sun says Brighton is a town full of gays, anarchists and green ne’er do wells. , they who refuse to Kurtz it with a mayor s who could refuse to curtsy to the queen. It is like, let the city rot in hell. And we are like, yes, I am really glad we have upset you. I am really glad we have got under your skin.

[(67:28)] Martin: It is an interesting point you make, Jim, that when you have roots, like really significant roots, and you are proud of them. They are running through your veins, and you are willing to talk about it a lot, as normally does about Brighton. Whether it is the football club, or the concerts, or whatever he is doing. There is something about it that only adds to your identity adds to the fabric of your life. But I think it grounds you and creates balance. It may not all be good. But generally, I would argue that routes are a fabulous thing, as, with my life living all over the place. And traveling routes are something I have struggled with. Right. And even though I found them, and I found them through my kids, I think when you can have a sense of purpose, and it is your environment. I think that is really powerful. 

[(68:13)] Jax: Yes, I agree actually. Even the idea of being the hometown hero, even as a story of if you think about because when you think about you probably think synonymously about Brighton, and if I am being honest with you, he is very, with the, in this famous gig that he did on the beach and all that and I think there is something really powerful about that because it makes you a real person. It is not just like this contrived figure that is appeared out of nowhere that makes music it is like, nice. He has walked the streets that we have walked in, and he reps this place and, and now he is there. Wow. You could do it too if you wanted. There is something about that as well that I think is really powerful. 

[(68:52)] Norman: Yes, it is, again it is a very special tingle, like the tingle of singing together or something like that. The tingle, I do not know I call it like the rocky syndrome-like when Rocky’s running around the town chain and everyone’s got a rock here. Sometimes obviously, I will not be training running upstairs. I will be in Waitrose. I will get a little bit of that when people just go Oh, I love what you did there when you get to navigate you on the beach or there is a slight. Yes, again it is like what is your strange between my highs like pride, yes.

[(69:29)] Martin: It reminds me of the show Cheers. , everybody knows your name. But there is something nice about feeling part of the environment. [crosstalk]

[(69:36)] Jax: There is this Motown aspect to it because I have got it from my wife is from up north from Lincolnshire village outside of Grimsby.  When you and the reason why I know we must be soul mates is because I grew up in South London, and there is just the odds of me marrying someone from Grimsby. They are very slim, slim, and up my trajectory seater lift as we, my wife, we have been together nine years. So we kind of grew it together, do you I mean, and she is been a part of every turn and the area but knew that I was married to her and he started to build and I get that little tingle of, I would say I am less proud of Grimsby because I think it needs a lot of love. It is one thing about Tory in the UK, and especially in America actually all around the world. Once you get outside the big cities. There is in his love, do you I am saying so Grimsby is one of those places. So I cannot say that I am like, this is the best place on Earth, but I get that sense of the boy Dunkard, he is been an Asha on the radio and I do like links FM interviews, and they go yes, you watch on Grimsby you love Grimsby but you love fish and chips. Do not… you like [Inaudible]

[(70:45)] Norman: He is one of our own?

[(70:47)] Jax: Yes, exactly. It does give you a little buzz. 

[(70:50)] Martin: I got the last question on Norman Cook before we get into more music and that is perhaps for the listeners normally you would like maybe you can tell us something that people might not know about you. I always find this interesting because it is a fair bit like I have heard you talk about superstition. I am obviously I am a fan. I have looked harder than others but is there anything that you think people do not know about you that you would be happy to share?

[(71:14)] Norman: I do not know if about me shouting and magpies you have gone pretty deep there. And [crosstalk]

[71:18)] Jax: What the hell?

([71:20)] Martin: I do. I actually do.

[(71:23)] Norman: I am colorblind?

[(71:25)] Martin: No, there you go?

[(71:27)] Norman: There is your little morsel.

[(71:28)] Martin: There it is. 

[(71:30)] Jax: Colorblind? Is that annoying? 

[(71:33)] Norman: Yes, I bet. It is not incapacitating, it is slightly annoying. What is more, it is more annoying for the people around me than me.

 Because I have never known anything different. But people around you are like because if you say you are colorblind, they go what color is that? If you get it, right, they go, you are not colorblind, and you are making it out. If you are you get it wrong, then they go. You think that is Blue. So, either I know I am sorry, my estranged ex-wife, she endeavors in the 20 years we were together, she never actually really believed that I was colorblind. She thought I put the whole thing on. Just to know what I mean. She used to say you just really play up to it. I am like, “What? Why would I pretend to be like…” I mean, it is just it is a weird one. It means I could never be an artist really, music could never get drafted into the armed forces, which I was quite happy about. It just means you get it is a bit like dyslexia. You see everything in color, I just do not know what the hell it is.

[(72:35)] Jax: You could be an artist, you could just be more texture. 

[(72:38)] Norman: I could be black and white artists. Yes, textured out there. But I cannot draw either. They say some, there are a few little technicalities.

[(72:46)] Jax: I mean, it is not the same, obviously, but I was I have been taking piano lessons recently, because I have got this belief that, well, if you are going to do music like I want to learn more about it. I need to have something to show for it. I can play your guitar. Like, I am going to play the piano now. Right? And it is been really fun actually being a novice, but I have always been learning that leaves little facts about the piano. Obviously, Stevie Wonder is blind. That is why a lot of his songs are written on the black keys, which is B,E flat major, and that kind of stuff because they are most easy for him to find. Yes, so you can make it work, bruff[?] is what I am saying.

[(73:25)] Norman: Yes, and like I said, there is a very if it was just a colorblind thing, I can go around and there are many other reasons right? But, I do still really appreciate I really love art, and like I said a couple of years ago that is got to curate my first exhibition. That was really exciting to again, it comes back to where we were talking to about phoning people, your heroes or people, I when I was curating it, they were like what and I am like, “Well, who do I get they said we’ll just phone up your favorite artists and see if they  like you and…” [crosstalk]

[(73:55)]Jax: Getting into NFT’s?

[(73:56)] Norman: I have done an hour and halfway through,I have done my bit of it. Have you? 

[(74:02)] Jax: Not yet, we are looking at it. If I am trying to discern the capitalist and the people that actually give a share about it.

[(74:10)] Norman: I surrendered about two weeks into the process, I surrendered the hope that I would ever actually understand what it was that I was doing. So for me, it is basically I am collaborating with an artist. He is a really good friend of mine, chemical x, and…[crosstalk]

[(74:27)] Jax: I thought you do it with Ryker because he had Riker on your show in…

[(74:32)] Norman: Yes, no I am not sure if I am allowed to do more than one I would happy to with Ryker. It would be fitting but no, chemical x,  first he got it, I would never I literally I have fungible what the word is fungible, mean. But now he is explained, he is explained the where it sits in the terms of, fungibility, and bitcoins and stuff like that. I mean, nothing to me whatsoever, I just enjoyed making a piece of music that goes with the visual that he did. He tweaked the visual to the piece of music I did. And so it is just like making a little short, little pop promo or, or like making the visuals that were using my show anyway.  For me, I just try artistically, I really enjoyed working with him on it. But where it stands in the greater scheme of the world, and whether it is actually going to sell for 25 million pounds or 25 million bitcoins, I really do not know.

[(75:25)]  Jax: The scope for it, though which is interesting in terms of the token aspect, because I think even for you might be attractive in terms of you can actually create experiences that are built off the token. So like, for example, at your show you there could be a moment in the show where you have people have the ability to buy or give it away for free and then a non-fungible token. Then it is attached to an experience. For example, the experience could be you do a private house party for someone at the show, or something like that. It is not just like art, it is basically anything unique and like for us for the sole person, basically.

[(76:03)] Martin: It is more than that. It is an expandable asset class. That is what about an NF t other than the fact that is a terrible fucking night non-fungible National Film theater. I tell you what, it’d be better to call it National Film. But basically, it is an expandable asset. And that is what makes it quite powerful. In fact, any entrepreneurship that I do, they want me to actually do a module on it. And I am actually starting to think, what, there is some clarity really needed because NF T’s are going nowhere. They are going to stay around for a long time. And guys, like yourself can create them. For sure and then you can build on top of them. 

[(76:42)] Jax: It is something quite punk about it, because it is decentralized. That is what I thought.

[(76:48)] Norman: Yes, you are selling it there. He is selling it much more spendable assets means absolutely nothing. So…

[(76:56)] Martin: I am going to send you Monday’s module on it. I am going to get it. We are going to get you NFT trained, whatever that fucking means. Anyway, let us talk about your career. It is funny, I listen to you. I am thinking, all your songs have something in them that describe the present day as a podcast like we have come a long, long way. Praise you for being here, right here right now. I am thinking fuck it out. I could literally bring all your songs together. I am thinking, “Why is he proud of you endured so long like do you think there is one kind of special quality that you literally to me?” Okay, because I am older but I am yours relevant to me today, as he was when you popped on the scene? What do you think is been that kind of special thing that has kept you going so long? Or more importantly, present in your fan’s eyes?

[(77:41)] Norman: I have honestly, no idea. There was never, unlike probably as an entrepreneur, you have a plan of what you are doing. You are thinking, I have seen a gap in the market for something or I know something, I have got something that people want. I did not approach anything with that client with any kind of plan of what I was doing or where I was going with it. It is just I like making these sounds I like making this noise. I like waving my arms around. And if there are enough other people who like it, then I can make a living out of it. And know that especially with fat boy slim, I would be in pop bands and I have been in situations where we were trying to control the situation and we try to think I know what is going to be vague. I know how this is going to work. I know how you should dress and, there are times when we flirted with that it just never really panned out like we expected right? 

If that were slim, it was in… I had I pizza man and freak power going and the mighty dog cat. The last thing I needed was another, another alter ego. Fatboy Slim just appeared and everybody really liked it and I had no idea why they like that so much more than the other things I was doing, but all I knew is I was really happy doing that. It was like us, by not trying to be something and not being in a band with other people, or just me pleasing myself seem to be really successful but I have no idea why that was. Then at the times when it has not been so successful, I have not been able to recreate it. I have no idea I wish I could say what I really knew I was doing there, and you are really reinventing myself and I tapped into that, I literally have a lot of it is luck. A lot of it was falling on the feet in the right place at the right time.

[(79:31)] Martin: You have to create something that you hope is iconic, right? There is something that stands the test of time in history. You defined a genre and the timing of your music. It was just powerful, right? Like it related to people.  If it is in history, it means someone is going to flip that at some point and go back to it. Right, just like my son’s 19. And without me is playing your music, because it is part of history. I think that that in itself is extremely powerful. The other thing is that you had a name, that and I am a guy that creates a lot of brands and products over the years. Fatboy Slim, I think is an iconic name, however the fuck you came up with it, it just worked. It sticks in people’s minds, right? Big in history, was such an iconic name and create a magic moment, it seems to have just stood the test of time. I am not going to bore you with other examples in different industries, but it seems to be common that if you can grab a bit of history because it was iconic, and you are highly memorable, then, yes, people going to come out of your shows all the time, right? They do seem to come out in big droves of people.

[(80:38)]Norman: It is interesting what you said about your 19-year-old son, because I have got a 20-year-old son, and in his Spotify algorithm, it is worked out that he kind of likes this Fatboy Slim, Norman Cook thing. It keeps feeding him tunes that he is not that he is never heard of… just suggesting tunes for him. Right? Then he goes, I really like this one. Then he looks up and he found out she is his dad again. He saw us make you feel good. It makes me feel fabulous. Because the thing is, I never bored him with it. Most of it was I made before he was born. So he would not he never gets played in our house. He would not have heard of it. It is from his point of view, he is half really proud but on the other half of “Fuck, it is him again.” It is quite interesting that you said that once he had like three that was in GT it is then led him down and algorithm of other things that I have done. I do not know whether it is just like somewhere in the algorithm says you must really freaking most likely related to him or something. But you cannot have intoned that I thought I was trying to make something iconic and lasting. I remember getting told off in interviews for going what this music is just it is just a dance deal on this Friday. It is not going to stand the test of time. Remember people, remember the Chemical Brothers used to take me to task and go you really belittle what we are doing by saying, you do not expect [crosstalk].

[(82:08)] Jax:  That is literally mind-blowing that you feel like I am with surely that is the shy show off talking him back because he is, there is just no what…  Are you being serious like…I could tell like the cams were sick here. Like they made some sick shit. I remember seeing a mountain recently in Mexico, they were headlining and it was crazy, and they played superstar DJs There we go, and the crowd went quiet, it is how they do it nowadays. They basically do like 10-minute dub versions of like 30 seconds and then disappear again. They literally went crazy. Maybe I am more of a fan of you. I do not know but I do not think about their music the same way that this praise you sounds like it is similar. It is right here, right now, it sounds like an anthem as well as…

[(83:02)]Martin: It is an anthem…

[(83:04)] Jax: it is like you can play that anywhere around the world. Literally, everyone starts crying and shit like…

[(83:11)] Martin: But the description anthem is always retrospective is like he…[crosstalk].

[(83:18)]Jax:  Was an ampere when you no way, no way 

[(83:20)] Norman: All right, Jack’s I will counter you with this. What was the last tune you made?

[(83:24)] Jax: This song called I missed… out what? Yes, that is out or that…[crosstalk].

[(23:30]) Norman:  that you made out even better even know even better if it is not out yet. The ones you did, yesterday in the show you  [crosstalk]

[(23:38)] Jax: Yes, I just did a show you, which thing is going to get through the charts?

[(83:44)] Jax: I think it is number one, mate.

[(83:49)] Norman: Right. How many weeks do you think is going to be number one?

[(83:53)] Jax: Oh, I have not got that fire stick is hard nowadays. To stay at number one. It is not like it was back in the day.

[(83:59)] Norman: What do you think is going to be its most successful sync, right? So, you cannot answer these questions course when you have just when you have done a tune, you do not know at the time, which are the really good ones.

[(84:13)] Jax: Yes, but I know how it makes me feel.

[(84:16)] Norman: Yes.

 When I do all the things you do you think in your head, they are going to be number one. But you have to be realistic there. No. But you cannot say that when you make a tune. There is going to be, your career-defining tune or the one that really out if you cannot tell me that you knew that until 10 years later.

[(84:36)] Jax: Back in a day, I could give you an indicator because you had pre-order systems and all that kind of stuff. So there was an obvious color chart hype and all that shit back in the day, but nowadays, where you have the great democratizer which is fucking the internet and streaming, it is definitely harder to get a number one like, I feel like that special places reserved for like, the Ed Sheeran of this world and, or a freak like viral Tiktok records. Do  I mean, and there are so many ways for things to become number one Do  I mean, but then I definitely the only rule that I apply to music and whenever I do anything is I really like this. I find it very addictive. I play it to people and they have the same feeling and I mean not punters, not A&R men and all that because they are fucked in the head A&rR men and eat like they have a different agenda to jumps into. 

But, you play to know, you have produced something well like it is not like it is going to you are going to play it in different places is going to sound like trash. , the core of it is well done. So we are judging it as a finished thing. That thing, you look at someone’s face, and you can tell whether it is truly giving them a buzz and then I link that with catchiness. And I am like, I know, I do not know how far this is going to go. But I know it is going to be successful.

[(85:52)] Norman:  So, it is catchy, but you do not know if it is anthemic. And if it is Anthemic, is it going to be long-lasting? Is it going to be, like, you just you cannot, you just cannot tell these things?

[(86:06)] Martin: You cannot measure the future. That is the problem. Right? So an anthem is a long period. 

[(86:16)] Jax: Yes, but you want to, I guess it is alluring as like, a music maker. Just like someone who makes sure is alluring, because you want to quantify because you want to have that kind of thing. So you want to, I guess it is like, it is kind of like, normalizing  anthemic and you are like, “I just made it.” That is probably frustrating, because it is like it is true by sight.

[(86:35)] Norman:  Yes, do not get me wrong. I was trying to make an anthem, but you always show them actually get through it. ,I really love my, my daughter, when she is on Tiktok. These tunes pop up on the algorithm, or someone’s thought of a really good funny dance routine to do with some tune, like from the 50s or something like that. 

Then all of a sudden, my daughter’s all over. And she is no idea about where it came from. And she is like, “I stopped seeing you long as this one that…” I am like, because it is from when I was your age, and then I definitely think, I wonder if the person who made that tune can understand that there is half a million right now, as we speak, there is half a million tween girls doing a really strange, highly sexy dance routine to a tune that you made 35 years ago, ideas going on. In six months’ time, you might find out your record company, you might go what was that spiking my relatives and they went “Yes, you even trending on Tiktok. It just slows it down. So, Dude, I want everybody to go like… I mean that is what that is one of the many things I love about the music business is that everything that is out there can get either recycled  I consult with somebody and they can have an opinion on another hit or an independent destiny, or, leave I advert when I was younger leave I ever used to be the thing it suddenly made a hit out of a tune that we would all forgotten because it was only [crosstalk].

[(88:13)] Martin:  Do you think the sea shanty record now is an anthem? 

[(88:15)]Norman: Is not that the craziest, out of all the weird things to come out of current pop culture, people singing sea shanties?  Now I know, I have just been hearing it go on. It is like, and it is scary. It is I am no, but really, actually is really number one in the charts. I said to say…

[(88:32)] Martin: It is actually, number one. 

[(88:37)] Norman: Yes, I do not know why, he showed me really is not one of the charts, right? Yes. I am one of the things I have found when the word means was coming out with on the internet. Someone said I will mean is what you have been doing. I looked at it and I think it was with Mark Radcliffe is Stuart McCone. They went and looked at what a meme was a trope or a meme. The difference between a trope and me and it is like, it is a slogan or expression that becomes part of the culture because for whatever reason, and it can exist within its original context or completely valid and then if you think about right here right now we have come a long way together eat sleep rave repeat basically turned on tuning cop-out  I basically lived my whole life in means without real not memes about cats but just like out of sight and maybe that is the reason why it stuck around because every time I hear the lyrics or praise you they still work this they work with the NHS they were not it maybe it is because I went for those means that are kind of one size fits all.

[(89:48)] Jax: Right here and you place the spine samples than on Tiktok

[(89:52)] Norman: Could be we are not because you will end up with data. You will end up seeing sea shanties. Taking Back two great moments in my musical career, one was doing a TV show in Germany. We kept doing the rehearsals and they kept stopping those people looking at the control room, and it was all gone wrong. And it was in doubly good to me was out. It went on for about 40 minutes, then they sent us back to the dressing room and said, “There is a problem. There is a problem.” Eventually, they came in and said, “I am sorry, we are having very big problems here.” I said, “What happened?” They said, “There is noise on the record. There is like scratching noise on it. We have data, reel to reel, and it still is making a scratching noise.” It was the scratching noise off my copy of guns of Brixton. When I sat with it, it had a little scratch on it, which was looped, and they just could not get their head around that that was part of the music.

[(90:52)] Jax: But no, I mean, you look at praise you . What was that? It was a demo recording of the offer. Like it was like a library recording of like a piano-like messing around the piano. Like that is not something you are going to go and listen to and tell as your average listener, right? It was like it is offcuts to me. 

[(91:11)] Norman: Going on that piano player we could ever find that piano player. Did you realize while you were just playing those three chords waiting for the guitarist to be in tune, then they were going to be an anthem Well, I love that is that there is talking in the background. Yes, but it is somebody on the piano. Mike, just talking about something else while he is playing.

[(92:27)] Martin: Okay, my brother, my friend. We are at that time of the show thought of the day, what you are saying?

[(92:35)] Norman: Well, it is it. It is interesting because I am going to keep it with music this week. The reason I am saying that is it is hard to escape, not just a wonderful podcast but also it took me right back to my early years. I do not need many things to remind me about some of the things I have done or where I have been in my life. But I treasure them. For me, I only wished that I had more of those experiences. And I hope the road ahead is as long as the road I have traveled but I know I probably am not going to have some of those experiences, because we are all getting older. And so my message to myself and to others, is you really have to value the moments you have in life. They are really, really important. And that is how I feel.

[(93:27)] Jax: I really like that because often when, and I am assuming a lot of the people listening, and this is a big generalization, but I feel like if you are listening to this podcast, you are someone who is curious and has a passion for life. Genuinely, that leads to a lot of productivity because there is a lot of life to try. And sometimes productivity is at the expense of experiences. Yes, you can be it can be very enriching. But there are things their sacrifices that come with that. I think we even commented on that with Norman in the interview. So, it is a powerful man, make time for those experiences. Do you? I mean, I love that. Yes, totally. My thought of the day is the theme is compassion. It is interesting since having a daughter, I read a little statistic that men who have daughters end up becoming more compassionate and paying their staff more, being more open to all sorts of things, but generally men who are a male boss… be bosses who are male, and then have daughters end up paying their staff more, I think you just basically become more porous. I have noticed that since having a daughter I have started to have much more intense feelings of compassion. But as much as I feel that we can have more compassion for others, generally, as we are seeing, where there are so many things online that we see where some of it is what you call virtue signaling, but a lot of it is for good when it is black life matters or Anti-Asian, “We are having to have compassion, whether you are from those ethnic groups or not, and especially me, for the first time being an Asian, seeing a tagline, stopping Asian hate is where I start to feel those feelings as a group.”  I also want to state that it is important to have compassion for yourself. In this weird time that we are in, where we are experiencing all different feelings all around the world, and I am sure a lot of people are feeling like their life has been on hold for a couple of years now, or, and all the daily stresses and the obstacles that we have to overcome. Just have compassion for yourself and be patient with yourself. That is me.

[(95:54)] Martin: I love that. I love that dude. I mean, Jesus Christ, that was very deep. That was, that was it was not only deep, and it is also very true. I like to think that my parents taught me compassion. I think it is an incredible trait that every human needs to acknowledge. Perhaps I do not know, develop, because I think it is it is within all of us. Yes. But I think that is really powerful. I also think that you gave a message of hope. Yes. Well, yes. I like that a lot. I like it. Thank you, Bob. I have gotten better at these thoughts of the day, so I am having more thoughts.

Jax: Yes, we’ll be going to you next.

Martin: Thank you Next time, we’ll expect another profound thought for the Day. All right, my bigger… bigger… bigger…. bigger.

[(96:43)] Jax: Yes, thank you guys for listening to the Jax Jones and Martin Warner show. There is so much in that interview to follow up on so go to our website, www.jaxamartinshow.com. And you will see videos for the Brighton Beach geeky talks about Norman’s early inspirations some useful stuff if you want to learn more about working in the music industry or need inspiration in whatever creative work you are doing. We have you guys you can now also WhatsApp the show from anywhere in the world on +447735394284. Send us any questions you have suggestions for guests or feedback in general. Do not forget to hit like, share, and subscribe if you have not already. I will see you next time. Bye.